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Princeton Palmer's avatar

I see where you’re coming from.

A few things I’d like to point out:

1. You have repeatedly asserted that violence is wrong without, in my view, proving the case biblically.

For example, in our discussion on your post about protecting others, you stated, “…we would all acknowledge that ensuring someone's physical safety is limited to what is right, legal, ethical, etc. John wouldn't be justified in stealing in order to feed Mary, simply because he had a responsibility to care for her. So, we shouldn't assume that caring for her would include killing someone who threatened her well-being.”

(Not to put too fine a point on it, but your argument is that violence of any kind - not just killing someone - is always wrong. Also the Biblical prohibition is against murder - not against all killing).

Similarly, in this post, the Proverbs passage you quoted explicitly addresses “wicked men,” which you seem to conflate with violent men. In doing so, you imply that to use violence is necessarily to be wicked.

Then, in quoting Romans 12, again you have prejudged that “overcoming evil with good” could not possibly include committing violence, in any context for any reason.

All this begs the question because you are asserting precisely the thing you’re attempting to prove (i.e., committing violence is always wrong). You haven’t yet shown, in my view, that Scripture teaches that violence is always wrong.

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Romans 13:4 states that a ruler “is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.”

Paul draws a moral distinction between the wrongdoer and the one who brings God’s wrath (righteous judgment) with the sword. Per your line of reasoning, however, both would be wrongdoers, making Paul’s teaching - and by extension, God Himself - hypocritical. Paul sees a moral difference in the violence of the lawbreaker and the violence of the one whom God sends to restrain him - so should we. You can argue that it’s a never-ending cycle (and I’d be inclined to agree with you), but I think you overstate the case in attempting to draw a moral equivalence between the two.

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Finally, calling the police against a violent offender is very likely to result in that person experiencing potentially lethal violence. So, in calling the police, haven’t you facilitated evil by putting your lawbreaking neighbor in harm’s way? And isn’t that simply a way of outsourcing the messiness of life in a fallen world? I also prefer that other people handle certain tough/dangerous people and situations on my behalf. But I only get to keep my hands clean because someone else does the dirty work. I couldn’t then feel that I have behaved virtuously. And wouldn’t it be hypocritical for me to thank the police officer for rescuing me while also criticizing him for having committed violence?

If any kind of violence is always wrong and we should do everything in our power not to use it against someone else, neither should we incite someone else to do it on our behalf.

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Frank Sterle Jr.'s avatar

Christ was viciously murdered largely because he did not in the least behave in accordance with corrupted human conduct and expectation—and in particular because he was nowhere near being the angry and sometimes even bloodthirsty behemoth so many theists seemingly wanted or needed their Creator and savior to be and therefore believed he’d have to be.

Christ’s nature and teachings even left John the Baptist, who believed in him as the savior, bewildered by his apparently contradictory version of the Hebraic messiah, with which John had been raised. Perhaps most perplexing was the Biblical Jesus’ revolutionary teaching of non-violently offering the other cheek as the proper response to being physically assaulted by one’s enemy. The Biblical Jesus also most profoundly washed his disciples’ feet, the act clearly revealing that he took corporeal form to serve.

Perhaps some ‘Christians’ even find inconvenient, if not plainly annoying, trying to reconcile the conspicuous inconsistency in the fundamental nature of the New Testament’s Jesus with the wrathful, vengeful and even jealous nature of the Old Testament’s God. But for many of us, Godly greatness need not be defined as the ability to destroy and harshly punish, as opposed to the willingness and compacity for compassionate forgiveness, non-violence and humility.

... Morally speaking, the citizenry collectively deserve far better than always having either the usual callous establishment conservative or neo/faux liberal government. But, regardless of who’s elected prime minister or president , we in the Far West live in a virtual corpocracy. An insidiously covert rule by way of potently manipulative/persuasive corporate and big-monied lobbyists.

The more they make, all the more they want — nay, need! — to make next quarterly. It’s never enough, yet the corporate news-media, which make up virtually all of Western mainstream news media, will implicitly or explicitly celebrate their successful greed [a.k.a. ‘stock market gains’].

A few social/labor uprisings or revolutions notwithstanding, it seems the superfluously rich and powerful have always had the police and military ready to foremost protect their big-money/-power interests, even over the basic needs of the masses, to the very end.

Even in modern (supposed) democracies, the police and military can, and perhaps would, claim—using euphemistic or political terminology, of course—they have/had to bust heads to maintain law and order as a priority during major demonstrations, especially those against economic injustices. Indirectly supported by a complacent, if not compliant, corporate news-media, which is virtually all mainstream news-media, the absurdly unjust inequities/inequalities can persist.

Perhaps there were/are lessons learned from those successful social/labor uprisings, with the clarity of hindsight, by more-contemporary big power/money interests in order to avoid any repeat of such great wealth/power losses (a figurative How to Hinder Progressive Revolutions 101, maybe)?

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