Not dismissive, just a personal requirement. I happen to believe what John wrote about not needing any man to teach me, that I have the holy unction Who teaches me all things.
I spent decades in churches. I’ve yet to attend one that was run by the Holy Spirit.
I know people that have the same perspective but the Spirit so values the church that there are things we cannot get apart from it. Don’t compromise on the biblical criteria for a good church but keep searching. If you can’t find one at least start a Bible study or home church. That’s what I did.
Respectfully, I’m not trying to read something into what you’re saying, but the church is not supposed to be “run by” the Holy Spirit. Christ is the head of the church (Colossians 1:18). The Spirit points to Jesus (John 16:14). If one believes the Spirit of God is attempting to bring attention to himself, this belief is not based on the Spirit’s teachings.
True, the phrase “Spirit of Christ” is a scriptural term (as is Spirit of God), but Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit are not the same “individual”, and whether the word “run” is used or not, the Biblical principle of the Spirit glorifying Jesus (1 Corinthians 12:3 - and not bringing attention to himself), and the principal of Jesus being in charge of the church remains true.
Wow is necessary. In the book of Acts, we have a stark contrast between a gathering of believers, which is a church, who believed with all their hearts that Jesus is the risen Lord. But they were hidden in the upper room. They hid because they were afraid of being exposed. But, they were praying and something very strange happened, they were each filled with the Spirit. No longer were they afraid.
Later, a couple came and offered the money for all their belongings, but they held back. The cost of this was very high. Who did this couple lie to?
We are a church that is pampered and protected, we can meet “under the law.” It is a right. Many places it is expressly against the law or custom or culture and those who gather are killed.
To say that the Spirit doesn’t run the church today is true…….to the eternal shame of the church
First, you’re conflating the context of Jewish Christians under persecution in Jerusalem with apathetic attitudes of people in America today. That’s an unfair comparison being used to make a point that proves nothing with the subject.
Second, the book of Acts records the beginning of the congregations (who assembled - because you can’t be a congregation without the assembly) who received letters from the apostles and prophets of God.
Lastly, remember, the context of Hebrews 10:24 was to Hebrew Christians who were not suffering martyrdom but rather a lack endurance in their faith (Hebrews 12:1-4). So your point carries zero weight.
Interesting take. We are currently not attending regularly because we are frustrated with weak leadership and bad teaching, plus indifference to world events.
Our church has struggled with issues related to abortion by not addressing them well. One pastor resigned as a result. We have stayed the course and will do so until or unless our church abandoned it’s vision and values. How to know when this happens will probably require in fact, certainly require prompting from the Holy Spirit.If we left, it would be difficult to find a church with solid vision and values that does not struggle with real world issues.
Yes, churches are full of flawed human beings, just like myself and like everyone else. I understand the difficulty of finding a fellowship of the Body of Christ that one can feel the resonance of Holy Spirit within. Even with my clunky attempts over the years, I have found not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE wonderful churches that were filled with raw and imperfect human beings, seeking God and feeling the presence of Holy Spirit at each and every service. I attended each one in a series, as my life had changes over multiple years that required me to move. I listened deeply to Holy Spirit and He never guided me off into the ditch, not even once. I understand the desire to go off alone...I was a Prodigal for over three decades...but the Hound of Heaven pursued me until I finally came Home, in deep disarray. Ask, seek, knock. I have a writing piece on my own Substack that is called "A Church, a Hospital" (likely one of my first pieces back in autumn of 2022. ) It reflects what a church really is. I hope all will ask Holy Spirit to guide you to a church home. Wendy
In our early 70's now and physical issues make us unable to get to Sunday morning church. We can make it to two life groups during the week because they meet later in the day or early evening. For this, i am truely grateful, but at the same time it makes me feel only half connected. From there it gets complicated. I'm resigned to this being just the way it is, period. God knows.
I think you have been manipulated by pulpit preachers. Jesus is head of the Church and if you believe in Him you are part of His Body. The organised church is man made. To suggest that anyone wilfully not attending one of these man made churches is not obeying Scripture or is in danger of falling away, or was never saved is wrong. Not saying that you believe this but many do. There are many of us who choose to no longer sit in congregations with pastors who preach a false gospel. And they are everywhere! YT preachers are often just as bad. Don't tell me to find another church. I have been to many. The sad truth is we are living at a time when the churches are being sifted. True believers are told to come out of them. The best place is with Jesus. If you are able to find one or two others then praise the Lord. But the Holy Spirit is always with you! He will lead you into all truth. Most of us miss corporate prayers and song but we choose not to compromise with false teachers and churches. It is a difficult choice to make. We now worship in spirit and in truth in the quiet of our homes.
💯 so much to say in this topic. But you said it perfectly.
I looked for a competent church that embraced the mission for 18 months. Could not find one. I agree that born again believers must be part of a local church. However the comment that salvation depends on it is false. We are saved by God’s grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone. If a believer is not committed to a Bible believing spirit filled mission oriented church then they should continue the search and at least fellowship with like minded believers in a small group setting. Don’t join a church that has bad doctrine. They won’t let you make it better. Been there, tried that. The result is frustration for everybody.
If church becomes a social gathering and the gospel is lost then it isn’t fulfilling God’s intention for believers. We have seen this growing over the past three decades. If possible, find a few believers and meet together.
Almost. Unfortunately, only meeting with a couple of believers directly contradicts Hebrews 10, Hebrews 13, Ephesians 4, among other passages. God gave us the church as a gift. Paul said a believer isn’t mature until he’s submitted to the authority of church leaders. We don’t have to like it. But we have to follow it, per 2 Timothy 3:16.
Doesn’t affect salvation. But it does affect maturity and blessing. God’s love is unconditional. His blessings are not.
I get it. Church hurt is real. And I hate it. I’ve also experienced it. But scripture is clear. Jesus said “if you love me you’ll obey my commands.”
I disagree. We are living in a time of apostasy. To remain in churches that are no longer true to Jesus is something we must not do. He tells us to come out.
You and I are not privy to the spiritual struggles of believers who wrestle with being true to God or true to a false system.
Understand, you are not disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with scripture. That’s a bold stance.
I agree that no one should remain in a church where the gospel or Jesus is not the center. I totally agree that no one should be in a “false system.” I also believe that there churches who are doing it right and operate under a true system, and that scripture instructs us to find those and contribute and submit to that authority.
The only actual debate is whether we die to ourselves (1 Corinthians 15:31) and submit to authority (Hebrews 13:17). Theological hermeneutics convey that the sentence in Hebrews was “imperative” and not suggestive. Implying command, not request.
Ephesians 4 laid out who those leaders are. And Hebrews 10 also “commanded” to not forsake the aforementioned people.
It is quite possible to find a local church who is doing the right thing, conveying to right message, and creating a space for our individual contribution to the local body, thus enhancing the body of Christ as a whole. We find what we look for. So we have to be looking.
It utterly shocks me how so many “Christians” think they can faithfully walk with Christ without being plugged into a local body. It can only be Olympic level mental gymnastics that produces such thinking.
“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching, to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and signs were being performed through the apostles. Now all the believers were together and held all things in common. They sold their possessions and property and distributed the proceeds to all, as any had need. EVERY DAY they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple, and broke bread from house to house. They ate their food with joyful and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.”
They broke bread from house to house. They met as friends and believers at homes. They lived as a community instead of just committing themselves to 9:30 on Sunday morning at church X.
It must have been a wonderful time of true fellowship.
I've almost always attended regularly. But I'm disabled and cannot walk at all. I've tried, literally dozens of churches since we began moving around and selling our house due to a son being in an accident. Churches are not welcoming at all to disabled people. Sure, they have a parking spot, many times one or two. But the sanctuary isn't set up for anyone who isn't mobile, and the ways to connect, never. Healing churches are disgusted, imo, if you don't recover after prayer. Sinners welcome, as they should be. But the woman with the issue of blood, or bent over, not so much. And cliques are the mainstay, so people smile and say nice things. But if you're new, good luck if you're also not mobile.
I'm sorry that your search has been so difficult. Our churches are designed with the handicapped in mind, with ramps and accessible chapels. We welcome everyone who wishes to attend, and there are always people willing to help. We preach of Christ, His Crucifixion and Resurrection, and His redeeming love for all mankind. We are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Respectfully, note the latter part of the quote: not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some…. Paul did not say as is the habit of all, or that it is necessary to “go to church”to follow Christ. I can encourage my neighbor. He can exhort me. I can meet together with fellow Christians without needing a set time and place.
I understand your point but disagree that I cannot be a good disciple or that I am disobedient if I chose not to engage in corporate worship.
Kindly, the emphasis of the “some” referred to those who were developing the habit of not assembling; not that only “some” had the habit of assembling. That was the point of the warning - not assembling when they should have been.
It’s not a coincidence that over half the letters of the New Testament were written directly to congregations, and most of the remaining letters were written directly to people who were working with congregations.
I used to be there when the church doors opened. Was an organist, Sunday School teacher, member on council and small group member. All my friends were from my church. We lived like early followers did. It was truly Spiritly uplifting.
Fast forward 40 years and 4 or 5 new church's, pastors and a different state and have found again a Spirit filled church but do not attend regularly. I find that too much negativity hits my body and heart when I sit within the church proper. I understand and am filled with the stirring of the Holy Spirit when I watch the sermon later in the day. By myself on the feed the church has for us.
How do I explain why I want to be in the body of Christ by not being present in the actual physical presence of the body of Christ?】
Salvation is a gift from God, given to those who believe. Church attendance for salvation is more in tune with Catholicism. Perhaps, radically catholic would be more appropriate.
Respectfully, there is a scriptural basis for emphasizing the necessity of an individual to be connected to a body of believers (aka the church - Acts 2:47) and that one’s intentional absence can reflect a mindset that fails to properly understand the relationship between Christ and his church (Ephesians 5:23, 30-32). Also, for what it’s worth, I’m not Catholic.
“And let us take thought of how to spur one another on to love and good works, not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)
We are called to love the brethern. The only wat to get to really meet other Christians is at Church. There are no perfect Churches, Pastors or Congregants. I know, I have tried to find one. Watching sermons at home is nice, I love watching my favorite Pastors,such as Paul Washer, John MacArthur and Don Green among others. But only as a supplement. I encourage everyone to find a Church and settle in. The world is a dangerous place.
The joke about finding a perfect church, finally found 1 and joined it but then it wasn't perfect anymore. None of us is perfect and we can't expect other people or any church to be perfect. Just try to find one with good teaching and is welcoming THEN join and be a generous contributer not a lazy consumer, only looking for what you can get.
We are instructed to meet regularly for worship and fellowship with other believers.
I have found that the times I don't want to go are the times I most need to attend; to get my priorities back in order, combats anger and depression, weighed down with doubts, being too focused on work, etc. Re- focus on God and His Word, relationships with other believers AND try and be a help and encouragement to others.
Agreed. Small, amateur led home churches is the right model.
All well and good. Show me the church where the Holy Ghost is in charge
That seems kind of perfunctory and dismissive. Since I don’t know you, it’s hard to offer any suggestions.
Not dismissive, just a personal requirement. I happen to believe what John wrote about not needing any man to teach me, that I have the holy unction Who teaches me all things.
I spent decades in churches. I’ve yet to attend one that was run by the Holy Spirit.
I know people that have the same perspective but the Spirit so values the church that there are things we cannot get apart from it. Don’t compromise on the biblical criteria for a good church but keep searching. If you can’t find one at least start a Bible study or home church. That’s what I did.
Respectfully, I’m not trying to read something into what you’re saying, but the church is not supposed to be “run by” the Holy Spirit. Christ is the head of the church (Colossians 1:18). The Spirit points to Jesus (John 16:14). If one believes the Spirit of God is attempting to bring attention to himself, this belief is not based on the Spirit’s teachings.
Wow. Okay, another name for the Holy Spirit is…..the Spirit of Christ. Run is the wrong word. Inspire, direct, teach, add to the numbers, teach, ect
Not sure “wow” is necessary, but ok 😁
True, the phrase “Spirit of Christ” is a scriptural term (as is Spirit of God), but Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit are not the same “individual”, and whether the word “run” is used or not, the Biblical principle of the Spirit glorifying Jesus (1 Corinthians 12:3 - and not bringing attention to himself), and the principal of Jesus being in charge of the church remains true.
Wow is necessary. In the book of Acts, we have a stark contrast between a gathering of believers, which is a church, who believed with all their hearts that Jesus is the risen Lord. But they were hidden in the upper room. They hid because they were afraid of being exposed. But, they were praying and something very strange happened, they were each filled with the Spirit. No longer were they afraid.
Later, a couple came and offered the money for all their belongings, but they held back. The cost of this was very high. Who did this couple lie to?
We are a church that is pampered and protected, we can meet “under the law.” It is a right. Many places it is expressly against the law or custom or culture and those who gather are killed.
To say that the Spirit doesn’t run the church today is true…….to the eternal shame of the church
First, you’re conflating the context of Jewish Christians under persecution in Jerusalem with apathetic attitudes of people in America today. That’s an unfair comparison being used to make a point that proves nothing with the subject.
Second, the book of Acts records the beginning of the congregations (who assembled - because you can’t be a congregation without the assembly) who received letters from the apostles and prophets of God.
Lastly, remember, the context of Hebrews 10:24 was to Hebrew Christians who were not suffering martyrdom but rather a lack endurance in their faith (Hebrews 12:1-4). So your point carries zero weight.
Interesting take. We are currently not attending regularly because we are frustrated with weak leadership and bad teaching, plus indifference to world events.
But we know we need to get plugged in.
Our church has struggled with issues related to abortion by not addressing them well. One pastor resigned as a result. We have stayed the course and will do so until or unless our church abandoned it’s vision and values. How to know when this happens will probably require in fact, certainly require prompting from the Holy Spirit.If we left, it would be difficult to find a church with solid vision and values that does not struggle with real world issues.
I fixed my iPhone’s inept dictation above…
Yes, churches are full of flawed human beings, just like myself and like everyone else. I understand the difficulty of finding a fellowship of the Body of Christ that one can feel the resonance of Holy Spirit within. Even with my clunky attempts over the years, I have found not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE wonderful churches that were filled with raw and imperfect human beings, seeking God and feeling the presence of Holy Spirit at each and every service. I attended each one in a series, as my life had changes over multiple years that required me to move. I listened deeply to Holy Spirit and He never guided me off into the ditch, not even once. I understand the desire to go off alone...I was a Prodigal for over three decades...but the Hound of Heaven pursued me until I finally came Home, in deep disarray. Ask, seek, knock. I have a writing piece on my own Substack that is called "A Church, a Hospital" (likely one of my first pieces back in autumn of 2022. ) It reflects what a church really is. I hope all will ask Holy Spirit to guide you to a church home. Wendy
The problem is not flawed people but false teaching.
WORD
Indeed…
In our early 70's now and physical issues make us unable to get to Sunday morning church. We can make it to two life groups during the week because they meet later in the day or early evening. For this, i am truely grateful, but at the same time it makes me feel only half connected. From there it gets complicated. I'm resigned to this being just the way it is, period. God knows.
We all bring something unique to the Body, and I like how you balance it out between the 'getting' and the 'giving'.
I think you have been manipulated by pulpit preachers. Jesus is head of the Church and if you believe in Him you are part of His Body. The organised church is man made. To suggest that anyone wilfully not attending one of these man made churches is not obeying Scripture or is in danger of falling away, or was never saved is wrong. Not saying that you believe this but many do. There are many of us who choose to no longer sit in congregations with pastors who preach a false gospel. And they are everywhere! YT preachers are often just as bad. Don't tell me to find another church. I have been to many. The sad truth is we are living at a time when the churches are being sifted. True believers are told to come out of them. The best place is with Jesus. If you are able to find one or two others then praise the Lord. But the Holy Spirit is always with you! He will lead you into all truth. Most of us miss corporate prayers and song but we choose not to compromise with false teachers and churches. It is a difficult choice to make. We now worship in spirit and in truth in the quiet of our homes.
💯 so much to say in this topic. But you said it perfectly.
I looked for a competent church that embraced the mission for 18 months. Could not find one. I agree that born again believers must be part of a local church. However the comment that salvation depends on it is false. We are saved by God’s grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone. If a believer is not committed to a Bible believing spirit filled mission oriented church then they should continue the search and at least fellowship with like minded believers in a small group setting. Don’t join a church that has bad doctrine. They won’t let you make it better. Been there, tried that. The result is frustration for everybody.
Your reply is like a sign to the answer I was waiting for. 🙏🏻
Glad to be helpful in whatever your next step is.
Based your earlier comment, I kindly invite you to read the story I uploaded. I think it will be worth it.
I read it. Saw some similarities in my own experience. There are a few of us, maybe more than we know.
Please allow me to contribute to this. I agree with your stance, which is basically a direct read of the scripture. So I should say, I agree with Paul’s stance. Lol. https://tidbitsofaudacity.com/wordpress/index.php/2019/05/13/church-i-dont-need-it-part-1/
If church becomes a social gathering and the gospel is lost then it isn’t fulfilling God’s intention for believers. We have seen this growing over the past three decades. If possible, find a few believers and meet together.
Almost. Unfortunately, only meeting with a couple of believers directly contradicts Hebrews 10, Hebrews 13, Ephesians 4, among other passages. God gave us the church as a gift. Paul said a believer isn’t mature until he’s submitted to the authority of church leaders. We don’t have to like it. But we have to follow it, per 2 Timothy 3:16.
Doesn’t affect salvation. But it does affect maturity and blessing. God’s love is unconditional. His blessings are not.
I get it. Church hurt is real. And I hate it. I’ve also experienced it. But scripture is clear. Jesus said “if you love me you’ll obey my commands.”
I disagree. We are living in a time of apostasy. To remain in churches that are no longer true to Jesus is something we must not do. He tells us to come out.
You and I are not privy to the spiritual struggles of believers who wrestle with being true to God or true to a false system.
Understand, you are not disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with scripture. That’s a bold stance.
I agree that no one should remain in a church where the gospel or Jesus is not the center. I totally agree that no one should be in a “false system.” I also believe that there churches who are doing it right and operate under a true system, and that scripture instructs us to find those and contribute and submit to that authority.
The only actual debate is whether we die to ourselves (1 Corinthians 15:31) and submit to authority (Hebrews 13:17). Theological hermeneutics convey that the sentence in Hebrews was “imperative” and not suggestive. Implying command, not request.
Ephesians 4 laid out who those leaders are. And Hebrews 10 also “commanded” to not forsake the aforementioned people.
It is quite possible to find a local church who is doing the right thing, conveying to right message, and creating a space for our individual contribution to the local body, thus enhancing the body of Christ as a whole. We find what we look for. So we have to be looking.
You are assuming much like most legalists who presume to speak for the Holy Spirit. This conversation stops right here.
💯
It utterly shocks me how so many “Christians” think they can faithfully walk with Christ without being plugged into a local body. It can only be Olympic level mental gymnastics that produces such thinking.
“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching, to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and signs were being performed through the apostles. Now all the believers were together and held all things in common. They sold their possessions and property and distributed the proceeds to all, as any had need. EVERY DAY they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple, and broke bread from house to house. They ate their food with joyful and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.”
Acts 2:42-47 CSB
They broke bread from house to house. They met as friends and believers at homes. They lived as a community instead of just committing themselves to 9:30 on Sunday morning at church X.
It must have been a wonderful time of true fellowship.
It can still be that way.
Wouldn’t that be Heavenly? No pun intended.
I've almost always attended regularly. But I'm disabled and cannot walk at all. I've tried, literally dozens of churches since we began moving around and selling our house due to a son being in an accident. Churches are not welcoming at all to disabled people. Sure, they have a parking spot, many times one or two. But the sanctuary isn't set up for anyone who isn't mobile, and the ways to connect, never. Healing churches are disgusted, imo, if you don't recover after prayer. Sinners welcome, as they should be. But the woman with the issue of blood, or bent over, not so much. And cliques are the mainstay, so people smile and say nice things. But if you're new, good luck if you're also not mobile.
I'm sorry that your search has been so difficult. Our churches are designed with the handicapped in mind, with ramps and accessible chapels. We welcome everyone who wishes to attend, and there are always people willing to help. We preach of Christ, His Crucifixion and Resurrection, and His redeeming love for all mankind. We are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Respectfully, note the latter part of the quote: not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some…. Paul did not say as is the habit of all, or that it is necessary to “go to church”to follow Christ. I can encourage my neighbor. He can exhort me. I can meet together with fellow Christians without needing a set time and place.
I understand your point but disagree that I cannot be a good disciple or that I am disobedient if I chose not to engage in corporate worship.
Kindly, the emphasis of the “some” referred to those who were developing the habit of not assembling; not that only “some” had the habit of assembling. That was the point of the warning - not assembling when they should have been.
It’s not a coincidence that over half the letters of the New Testament were written directly to congregations, and most of the remaining letters were written directly to people who were working with congregations.
God bless in your studies.
I'd say weChristians are "hypocrites" hypocrite in the Greek is actor . We are all trying to act like Jesus.
https://open.substack.com/pub/bridgetograce/p/jesus-has-left-the-building?r=5h8n5b&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
This may be why
I used to be there when the church doors opened. Was an organist, Sunday School teacher, member on council and small group member. All my friends were from my church. We lived like early followers did. It was truly Spiritly uplifting.
Fast forward 40 years and 4 or 5 new church's, pastors and a different state and have found again a Spirit filled church but do not attend regularly. I find that too much negativity hits my body and heart when I sit within the church proper. I understand and am filled with the stirring of the Holy Spirit when I watch the sermon later in the day. By myself on the feed the church has for us.
How do I explain why I want to be in the body of Christ by not being present in the actual physical presence of the body of Christ?】
"Your salvation depends on it" - this is wrong.
Salvation is a gift from God, given to those who believe. Church attendance for salvation is more in tune with Catholicism. Perhaps, radically catholic would be more appropriate.
Respectfully, there is a scriptural basis for emphasizing the necessity of an individual to be connected to a body of believers (aka the church - Acts 2:47) and that one’s intentional absence can reflect a mindset that fails to properly understand the relationship between Christ and his church (Ephesians 5:23, 30-32). Also, for what it’s worth, I’m not Catholic.
“And let us take thought of how to spur one another on to love and good works, not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)
God bless in your studies.
We are called to love the brethern. The only wat to get to really meet other Christians is at Church. There are no perfect Churches, Pastors or Congregants. I know, I have tried to find one. Watching sermons at home is nice, I love watching my favorite Pastors,such as Paul Washer, John MacArthur and Don Green among others. But only as a supplement. I encourage everyone to find a Church and settle in. The world is a dangerous place.
Well said. Thanks.
The joke about finding a perfect church, finally found 1 and joined it but then it wasn't perfect anymore. None of us is perfect and we can't expect other people or any church to be perfect. Just try to find one with good teaching and is welcoming THEN join and be a generous contributer not a lazy consumer, only looking for what you can get.
We are instructed to meet regularly for worship and fellowship with other believers.
I have found that the times I don't want to go are the times I most need to attend; to get my priorities back in order, combats anger and depression, weighed down with doubts, being too focused on work, etc. Re- focus on God and His Word, relationships with other believers AND try and be a help and encouragement to others.
Therein lies your problem - listening to false teachers.